What killed Burn Nightclub?
4 02 2008Burn Nightclub closed two weekends ago on January 19th, and some of us were there to see it off into the abyss that so many great dance clubs have fallen into in recent Phoenix history. For me this started with Crowbar, then Boom, and now Burn.
I’m sure the hetero clubs probably come and go all the time and nobody gives them a second thought, but since there are so few gay dance clubs in Phoenix we all like to add our own theories about why they “didn’t make it.” I’m no different, and since I’ve had a few weeks to think about I’m ready to present to you my Burn autopsy results.
Why did Burn close down as a gay dance club? The Phoenix New Times named Burn Best Gay Bar 2007 (although the reader’s choice was Amsterdam). It was barely more than a year old. But suddenly, and without fanfare, it was closed.
The official story is that it’s been sold, and will reopen again as an improved version of itself…likely a hetero club. But I don’t think this was a planned sale, as things looked bad for awhile before an unexpected and sale and close. I think the sale was Plan B, since a successful club would surely be held for longer than a year (business valuations are often some standard multiplier of last year’s revenue). The crowd volume slowly but surely diminished over time, and there has been barely more than a dozen or so patrons for many weeks.
Was it suicide or murder? Some have been quick to criticize Burn itself for poor management. To be honest, I would like to believe this was the case…because if poor management was to blame, then that means the Phoenix “market” can still support a gay dance club like Burn, and it makes it that much more likely that such a club will be opening again in the near future. If this really were the case, then these are the likely suspects. Note that these are mostly a collection of complaints I’ve collected from others…I was there until the very end, so I obviously didn’t have much of a problem with the place.
Pricing
Any time something other than a total dive bar is opened, some cheap queen is going to be there complaining about drink prices. The fact is that we get so spoiled on weekday 2-4-1 nights and happy hours that it’s a little bit of a shock to have to pay $5-10 a drink on Saturdays. However, the reality is that Burn was no more than $1 or $2 higher than average gay bar drink prices. (And they were definitely a little less than the typical Scottsdale hetero club prices.) My thoughts are that if such a small price disparity is going to ruin your night, then you might need to re-evaluate how much you’re drinking. It isn’t necessary to drink like a fish in order to have a good time…although if you can afford it, it doesn’t hurt 
I’ve also heard complaints about the cover charge at Burn. For some special events it was $20, but 95% of the time it was only $5. For some reason the guys in Phoenix won’t think twice about paying a hefty $10-20 cover in West Hollywood, but have a problem paying a few bucks in Phoenix. This is an odd contradiction because we’d like Phoenix to become more like West Hollywood, but in the end we have a hard time placing that much value in it. However, if $5 is enough to make you think twice about going to a club then I think there are probably other more important reasons why you don’t like it.
Pricing Autopsy Results: Unlikely cause of death
Too Gay?
The most interesting complaint that I have heard is that gay Phoenicians are just not that into the gay bar scene anymore. I saw this recently on several online profiles and Myspace pages, as well as hearing it firsthand from some of the younger crowd. Could the days of gay bars be over? It does in fact seem as though everyone is coming out at an earlier age and is so much more comfortable with being gay, that they may no longer feel the need to go to a gay bar to be private about their sexuality. Many of us have been discussing the possibility of this scene (along with the circuit party scene) dying, although I’m not buying the argument as much as I used to.
The reason? Amsterdam and Charlie’s are still packed. There is clearly still a market for gay bars and clubs (technically Charlie’s is a dance club, as ghetto as it is). They are doing something right where Burn has failed.
Gayness Autopsy Results: Unlikely cause of death
Parking
An odd rumor began circulating town the end of Burn that parking was almost impossible to find. Well, I have to tell you that we (meaning Rich) drove most of time and never had a hard time finding parking along one of the nearby streets. And there are so many parking garages that sit almost empty around downtown Phoenix that it’s hard for me to believe that anyone would have a hard time with parking. It was clear that this rumor even reached the management at Burn, because they started sending out messages on Myspace that they would give you a free drink if you could show them a ticket from the nearby parking garage. Again, if this was enough to keep you from going to Burn then I think there were bigger problems with the club than this false parking problem.
Parking Autopsy Results: Unlikely cause of death
Traffic
Downtown Phoenix streets have been in a bit of a shambles over the last year while construction proceeds on the light rail project. Personally, the construction has been very exciting for me since I believe that the light rail will being more urban development to downtown Phoenix. But for some, the traffic associated with street closures, redirection and uneven paving surfaces is just too much to bear.
Especially for those who live in the suburbs (in the Phoenix area this refers to mostly everyone) this situation may force them to stay away from downtown Phoenix altogether until everything is clean and organized again to their liking. Those of you reading this from another metropolitan city may think this is ridiculous, but you need to know that Phoenix is not a town of “city dwellers.” Most of us who love cities end up moving away, and the rest of us who choose to stay will end up dumbfounded over the reasons why the artifacts of urban life continue to fail to take root in Phoenix; the supposed fifth largest city in the United States.
Traffic Autopsy Results: Possible cause of death
Aesthetics
By far the number one complaint I have always heard about Burn is that the layout of the club is too awkward. Indeed, when you walked in you would instantly fee like you are on the dancefloor (because you were) and the only bar runs the entire length of it. Those who are intimidated by dancing would not like the layout, and it was difficult to find an area to talk with friends without actually going outside to the patio. I agree that the layout could have been far better, and prefer clubs that have several distinct and private areas to socialize, as well as a dedicated area for dancing.
Aesthetics Autopsy Results: Possible cause of death
Marketing
From the beginning, Burn’s marketing was somewhat suspect due to their extremely poor website. It started out as a bit of a joke, because my website and Rich’s actually ranked higher for search terms such as “Burn Nightclub” than the real Burn website itself. When the website was launched it had several errors on it - for example, signing up for their event notification list always triggered an error message, and it was never fixed. It was never updated with new events or photos, and even to this day has not been updated to the fact that the club is closed down.
Now, their poor website is not even close to be being a plausible reason for the failure of the club - but I find that poor websites are a good indication of how much attention is being paid to overall business marketing, because a website is a relatively inexpensive and easy item to complete on any basic marketing checklist. And if the website was never finished or fixed, then what else was being ignored?
Marketing Autopsy Results: Possible cause of death
The Hotness Factor
I have never heard this explicit complaint from others, but it’s my own personal complaint against Burn. Honestly, there were never very many hot guys there. Sure, a few here and there, but it wasn’t a “hot crowd.” I mentioned that most people don’t have a problem spending a pricey cover in West Hollywood, but that’s because it’s well worth it for the ability to cruise a ton of hot guys. Not so with Burn, we’d be paying a cover to basically stare at a mediocre crowd…possibly a Phoenix-wide problem, but that’s for another time.
Consistent with my friend Jerry’s hypothesis, everything is motivated by sex. Without it, there’s nothing. Argue all you want, but you know its true. And for whatever reason Burn didn’t do a very good job of getting and keeping the hottest guys coming. Even on those “night out” photo pages in the gay rags, the pages were filled with a spread of the most fugly club-goers you’ve ever seen.
Burn started out with some pretty hot bartenders and waiters, but then their staff dwindled over time. In fact, I remember that the overall crowd started diminishing when Steven left. Probably a coincidence…I’m just saying
Hotness Autopsy Results: Possible cause of death
In the end, it appears that there may be several factors leading up to Burn’s death. However, there is likely one main cause that precipitated the other factors having more of an effect. I’m going to call it….it was the hotness factor. Although I would welcome any feedback to the contrary.
Possible Cause of Death : Flipping. It is not unheard of for someone to open a club, build a client base and start looking for an exit as soon as the ball gets rolling… just like flipping houses.
Possible Cause of Death: The Newness factor: Remember how excited you were when the rumor of a second level came around? I think it would have jump started a resurgence… unfortunately, nothing ever seemed new or different at Burn. The layout may have lent to this.
Possible Cause of Death : Heath Ledger. Drugs, in other words, undermine profitability.
Possible Cause of Death : Staffing. I remember the Cabana CORE night, and the lack of attention your $500 bar tab got you. This was burn at its height, and they were scrambling to keep up with demands. But I remember asking myself… did they need as many security guards?
Possible cause of death : Too Much Too Soon. Latin nights have proved that 3rd and Washington is a viable corner… but the size (rent) and the dusk of downtown as a destination made Burn as a large venue dance club less viable and before its time.
Yeah I agree with all of your theories except for flipping. I edited a paragraph in the post related to business valuation - if this were a planned flip I think that they would certainly hold it for longer than a single year in order to build value. I think the sale was an emergency exit strategy.
Great post, all valid points. It was strange to hear everyone say “Oh I don’t really like Burn” but never hear why they said that. I guess we should have asked why more often. I think it was a combination of the perception that parking was bad, the cover charge and the lack of any real marketing. We saw first hand how effective marking could be for Burn with the Trade parties. I agree with the comments regarding the layout of Burn. I think Phoenix can sustain a dance club but I don’t believe it can be soely a dance club. It has to be more of a combo environment like the Abbey and even Charlies so that the non-dancers have a comfortable place to hang out and chat.
Just catching up on your BLOG. I can’t comment on this particular gay bar but I think of almost the same things wtih respect to gay bars in Portland. Specifically your observation on “some cheap queens”. Sorry if I sound elitist, but we have a lot of those cheap queens here in Portland. And that might be the main reason we will never have a nice gay bar in Portland. It’s as if we have a constant influx of them to sustain the low price and dingy dive bars. Also, I don’t understand the statement, “I’m not in the scene” which implies you don’t go to gay bars and which seems to be the only way you can land a date here in Portland. I am so over it!
As the resident DJ that took over and then went down with the ship, I have some theories about Burn’s problems as in insider looking out. The club was professionally managed, well engineered (equipment wise), and had good staff that were dedicated loyal and fun. It was like working with family; even when numbers were low morale was high to the end. What went wrong:
Parking. When the city condemned the large lot south west of the club, business took a nose dive. Combined with the already difficult parking situation and the unwillingness of people to pay the parking garage fees, business fell sharply when that happened. Management was exploring the possibility of a valet or shuttle service when the club was sold withou warning — “an emergency exit strategy.”
The neighbors. With four hip hop bars directly to the east, the neighborhood went south. During the months of December 2007 and January 2008, there were three incidents of physical violence (at least one a shooting) that required a police presence on that block at closing time. A few gay boys, including one of my roommates, was roughed up a bit by the “elements” going in and out of those places. There was a buzz that the area was not safe. That contributed to its downfall.
Forbidden. Although this place is nothing to write home about, it did kick dirt in the grave although I suspect the the grave was dug long before that place opened up.
I agree with the comments that the club was too large and open. I agree that a combo atmosphere would have been more effective with smaller alcoves and two dance floors with different formats.
The club was opened by a local businessman who, like Steve Rodgers of Crowbar (where I also had the privilege of DJing), was a visionary. David poured his heart and soul into Burn. It is my understanding that he sold it reluctantly to a third party whose identity is unknown to me. The overhead was fierce and the crowd fickle. He just couldn’t keep up. The property was not flipped. The sale occurred without notice. We all reported for work and were informed it was our last night.
I have been a DJ here in Phoenix for almost two decades and have spun in other cities including Los Angeles, Palm Springs and Denver. I have three observations about the Phoenix “community”. They are cheap. They are fickle and they have no loyalty whatsoever. Although Crowbar and Boom showed promise of lifting Phoenix into the ranks of a city with a real nightlife, when those two places closed, those hopes died with them. As Vikram noted, the rank and file “party people” continue to flock to low price and dingy dive bars and will do ANYTHING to avoid a cover. Until that attitude and astmosphere changes, Phoenix nightlife will continue to suffer.
Of course, you can always blame the DJ (me). Ha!
Thank you for this wonderful post and for allowing me to vent.
Thanks for contributing Chris! Very enlightening comments. Of course what I left out of my post was how disappointed my friends and I were to see Burn go. As much as I want Forbidden to now succeed, part of me feels like I didn’t move to Central Phoenix so that I could drive back to the East Valley to go clubbing.
I think we’re all taking a “wait and see” attitude toward Phoenix with the light rail and ASU campus being completed soon. Hopefully someone can make a real club work in this town sometime soon! I’d certainly be interested in investing in, or otherwise contributing to that effort.
I live in Chicago, but I have had to work in Phoenix for extended periods of time. I have to agree with the above posts. Gays in Phoenix are cheap. I was really surprised by how many people bitched about drink prices and (low) covers. No one in Chicago complains about prices because, in general, drinks are cheaper than straight bars and they’re stronger (like all gay bars). Even tourists don’t complain about drink prices.
To me Phoenix was mostly a loose grouping of niche gay bars with no real gay clubs. It’s sad to see Burn go. Hopefully another gay club can take its place, but with Phoenix’s cheap gay clientele who knows if it would stick around.
[...] of 2-3 years and that he stripped at Dick’s Cabaret, we found pictures of David working at Burn, a gay nightclub that just recently closed in Phoenix.” [...]
[...] of 2-3 years and that he stripped at Dick’s Cabaret, we found pictures of David working at Burn, a gay nightclub that just recently closed in [...]
It’s always good to hear the rich and beautiful queens complaining that us ugly and poor ones always ruin everything for them… if we’re not cluttering up their sightlines to the “hot” guys (because we’re all fat, too), then we’re cluttering up the barlines with our tattered dollar bills and change to pay for an overpriced drink that quite OFTEN is watered down (because we’re ugly… bartenders know it’s the truth, they don’t care about our business, they’d rather we leave so the hot guys have more room to dance and preen).
This town has NEVER supported any kind of club with a cover charge, and why should that change? Why should we start paying to go to a place where you have to pay more for the drinks and the privilege of being snickered at by the beautiful people (in their own minds anyhow). Charlie’s may seem ghetto, but at least there is a mix of people there and you don’t have to feel like you’re being judged constantly by a bunch of shallow queens. I submit that blaming Phoenix’s gay community for a bar’s failure to remain open is quite silly… if you have a place that’s charging reasonably for drinks and you can dance and maybe see more than just gym-bunnies in the scenery, then perhaps you might make it more than a year, and there are plenty of clubs that have.
Thanks for your comments Ugly ‘n’ Cheap! You bring up a really good point that I think hasn’t been properly addressed here. We can sit here all day and blame the Phoenix market for not wanting to pay a cover, pay certain prices for drinks, look at a certain type of crowd, etc. But you’re right, at the end of the day it isn’t their fault…it’s the fault of the business owners for not being in proper tune with what their market is interested in and can sustain. I wonder if Burn did any demographic research or polling prior to opening the business? We’ll never know.
However, the truth is that the gay club scene in Phoenix isn’t dead. All I have to do is go over to Karamba Nightclub, which is just a couple blocks from my house, to see that place packed to full capacity consistently every weekend. I would propose that club as an example of one that’s doing everything right - they have identified their market (gay latino and friends) and apparently given them exactly what they wanted…which, by the way, includes a cover charge.
One reason that I didn’t see mentioned as a possible downfall is the increased popularity of the interenet sex sites (manhunt, adam4adam etc.). It’s very easy for gay guys to meet other guys for sex on the internet without spending a cent going out to the clubs. I was an afterhours DJ at Boom (DJ Tim B) and noticed this change prior to Boom being sold and turned into a latin club. I believe Tina has become a big part of this also but that’s another story.
Another reason, that was briefly mentioned, is the party crowd doesn’t drink nearly as much as the latin crowd. If the boys are bringing they’re own party favors to the club and not buying drinks a club will only survive by charging a larger cover charge but we know the Phoenix crowd won’t have that.
Many other large cities have clubs that offer gay saturday nights but market other nights to different segments of the straight community. A couple examples of this were Velvet Nation in DC and club Montage in San Diego. Would this approach work in Phoenix?
Just my 2 cents.
Hey Tim! I totally agree with you here. And it’s a great point to make - that the competition isn’t necessarily coming from other bars, it’s coming from other activities. Meeting up online is definitely easier than at a bar, and so I suppose that some guys would begin to wonder what the point is of going out anymore when they can meet the objective online instead. And drugs are certainly taking the place of drinking for some, but I don’t have the right perspective to know if it’s getting any more common than it used to be. I guess the bottom line is that bars and clubs are in the business of selling alcohol - and if nobody is interested in that as much anymore, then the bars and clubs won’t be able to make it unless they keep increasing their cover charges!
I agree with all of the “possible causes of death.” I would also add that there wasn’t really an incentive to go there. There were no “hot new DJ’s” or special nights to make it stand out. Burn had all the makings of a 4 star club, but just fell short in a lot of areas. I had a funny feeling about the widely marketed “grand opening” that kept getting delayed. Never a good sign.
We will see if Forbidden lasts or not. I have a problem with a straight owner changing it over only to make money and not really care about the LBG community. Not too mention most of the staff is straight and the drinks are severely under-poured. Then again, if anyone has ever had a drink at Charlie’s any other club is under-poured-lol.
Some friends and I had wondered why Burn had closed - thanks for clearing some of this up. I personally didn’t go cause, from what i was told by others, it was twink central. I’m not going to go to a bar (or pay cover to go to one for that matter) where 5′4″, 140, blond & blue-eyed boys are running around; not my type of guy. I’d rather go to Charlie’s where guys in jeans & caterpillar work boots can be found.
And Vince, you just have to know what bartender to go to, lol…
I lived in Phoenix for 8 years and have been gone for almost 3. I was in the Fosters, Crowbar and Boom crowd while they lasted. It’s sad to read what people are complaining about because it’s the same things I complained about 8 years ago.
When Crowbar closed, I think the crowd (me included) was looking for the same thing they experienced at Crowbar and found it at Boom. When Boom closed there wasn’t anywhere to go for a long time and I think people just started doing their own thing. When new clubs opened, the crowd would go check it out and hope for the same “feeling” they got at Crowbar and Boom. We are fast to pick things apart the first time we go somewhere and never go back.
Don’t get me wrong, Charlies is a great place and luckily they have always been there when these other clubs have failed.
Hopefully a decent dance club will open there again.
Our Lesbian Governor would not promote it. Too close to her downtown condo..
Hey Ya’ll, I have lived in Phoenix for 20 years. We need a ‘Dallas” or “Oklahoma City” type atomosphere where you have a 70’s Disco night (Usually on Sunday), a Drag Night (Usually a Wednesday or Thursday Night), a DANCE Night (Always on Saturday), and A Bar B Q Afternoon (Usually on Sunday, etc.. ) DJ’s like you find on XM Channel 81, none of this Hip Hop Gangsta Crap from LA. No more GAY FRIENDLY BS!!! It’s Either Gay or it is Straight!!! If you have not been to the Bible Belt to Party, you should go! The “Round Up” in Dallas puts Charlies to shame! The COPA in Oklahoma City puts ALL of OUR BARS IN PHOENIX TO SHAME! (It’s in a Gay Hotel w/3 other Bars!) USAir & American Airlines Service Dallas Non Stop Daily!! UsAir & Southwest Service OKC Non Stop Daily!!!! Now, go have a “Great Time” and your favorite Bible Belt Area Gay Bars!!! (Little Rock Too!!!!)